AMD's random number generator can't generate a 0?

(board.flatassembler.net)

71 points | by BruceEel 2 hours ago

10 comments

  • jstanley 30 minutes ago
    This is not the first RNG bug on Zen 2, I recall after I first got mine that some application or other would quit immediately at startup because rdrand always returned -1, i.e. all 1s. It was fixed with a microcode update.

    Do we now learn that they fixed "always generate all 1s" with "never generate all 0s"??

    EDIT: I've been unable to reproduce the problem on my CPU, FWIW. It's a Ryzen 5 3600.

    EDIT2: OK, update, I can reproduce it with rdrand16, rdrand32 is fine but rdrand16 can never generate all 0s. So my CPU does have this problem!

    • RandomOnyx 0 minutes ago
      Does rdrand32 and then taking the lowest 16 bits of its result yield any zeroes?

      Basically I'm wondering if it's a bug in the version of the instruction that writes to a 16-bit reg, or a bug in the underlying RNG

    • yk 23 minutes ago

          return 4 # Determined by fair dice roll.
  • CodesInChaos 41 minutes ago
    Embarrassing, but probably little practical impact, since these hardware random numbers are typically not used directly and instead seed a CSPRNG.
  • 20k 6 minutes ago
    I always wonder how hardware bugs like this happen with the sheer amount of hardware validation that's done. It'd be fascinating to know how it slipped through the cracks, though I know almost nothing about this side of the industry sadly
  • matja 35 minutes ago
    I'm getting 16-bit zeros on my Zen 3 chip (+1:3821, 0:3893, -1:3895), I will wait to get some statistically significant samples for the 32-bit values and update the forum thread. Maybe it was fixed after Zen 2?
  • throwawayffffas 4 minutes ago
    So what? The point is to be non predictable not to pick all the numbers in the range with exactly the same probability. Would it be a problem if it never generated 16542?
  • dark-star 30 minutes ago
    Usually you do "rdrand % <some-number>" anyways, and in that case you will still get zeroes. True, your result might be skewed by 1/(maxint/some-number) but I guess that's not a big problem in practice
  • Plainharbor21 7 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • ExoticPearTree 37 minutes ago
    The probability of generating a zero is incredibly low if you use the normal distribution curve.

    So it is not necessarily that it doesn't generate zero, they did not run enough times to increase the probability of actually generating a zero.

    • blensor 31 minutes ago
      From what I can see they were trying to generate 16bit integers, so the probability is 1 in 65536 and they were running the test for 11 hours.

      You definitely would expect a roughly equal number of 0s as any other of those numbers since it's uniformly distributed. And definitely not 0

    • zygentoma 28 minutes ago
      This also seems to happen for 16 and 32 bit numbers, so you should be able to see zeros easily.

      They also write:

      > Running the same programs on an Intel processor, and the 0's are there with no problem.

    • matja 34 minutes ago
      Why would it be a normal distribution?
      • throawayonthe 12 minutes ago
        should be a discrete uniform distribution right?
  • ZiiS 39 minutes ago
    It is just possible they decided crypto code that uses it was safer to skip zeros. (Whist mathematically it should be no more likely; it is vastly more likely someone will actually try that key).

    It is also possible that their code was generating too many zeros and the easiest fix was to discard them all.

    • jstanley 1 minute ago
      Can you clarify what you mean by "it is vastly more likely someone will actually try that key"?

      I'm guessing you don't think there are people calling rdrand in a loop and throwing away the output with high probability except when it is 0, but I can't see how else you imagine people would be vastly more likely to use the output when it is 0?

    • dark-star 32 minutes ago
      this is not how crypto works