10 comments

  • Synaesthesia 2 minutes ago
    One measure of democracy is how much say you have in issues which affect you, the running of your neighborhood, your government etc.

    If you look at decision making at high levels, the general population usually gets ignored. Instead, powerful special interests dominate the government.

    Particularly with regard to foreign affairs of the USA, the oil lobby and weapons manufacturers. And look who's benefiting from the current state of affairs in Ukraine, Iran and Venezuela: US arms manufacturers and oil companies.

    On the other hand in many ways people in the USA are extroardinarly free, there's pretty good protection of freedom of speech.

  • flr03 12 minutes ago
    It doesn't look like it got any better since 2014.
  • mertbio 22 minutes ago
    How can a country be democratic with only two parties?
    • hn_submit 12 minutes ago
      This is a direct outcrop of the winner-takes-all electoral district system which forces parties to merge to have a chance at winning. I personally find it an undemocratic, archaic and meritless system.
      • RobotToaster 1 minute ago
        It was revolutionary and progressive, in the 13th century... Now, not so much.
      • giov4 7 minutes ago
        electoral district system? this seems to be very specific and a subset of the topic/problem
    • arzig 4 minutes ago
      You should think of it this ways.

      In the us, political groups for coalitions before the election happens. This is in contrast to most European countries where they set up the coalitions afterwards. Groups occasionally migrate between the parties and the us is in one such realignment now.

    • DarkNova6 9 minutes ago
      I'd like to think that it's twice as good as a one-party system.
      • lapcat 5 minutes ago
        Not sure whether you're serious or joking, but in the realm of economics, I think that duopolies are actually worse than monopolies, because everyone recognizes that a monopoly needs to be strictly regulated and/or broken up, whereas when there's a duopoly, that's supposedly "competition" and thus the duopolies largely escape regulation or breakup, even if they implicitly or explicitly cooperate and coordinate to crush any other competition.

        In the same way, the obvious solution to a one-party system is to overthrow the government, whereas with a two-party system, you're supposed to fight within the system... and mostly accomplish nothing, because those in power have overlapping interests.

    • tonyedgecombe 18 minutes ago
      I remember reading an economics paper that showed you need at least four suppliers in any market to get real competition. I can't see why politics is any different.
  • feverzsj 5 minutes ago
    Democracy isn't absolute. I'd rate US style democracy 6 out of 10, while Russia is 2.
  • hunglee2 52 minutes ago
    We hear a lot about what is or isn't a democracy but the reality is that very few countries today would ever be above the bar set. Even Athenian democracy wouldn't, as it was a demos of the male citizens only, supported by a large slave class.

    What is more important is: is it working? And if not, why not?

    • Balinares 27 minutes ago
      Which is why, instead of "democracy", it's more useful to quantify democratic. One traditional measure of such is the degree to which political power can be gained through free elections. But the research in TFA instead uses a novel measure: the weight a population has in its country's policymaking. Which yields fascinating results.

      Because, per the linked research, in present-time USA that weight is ~zero.

      Which is especially interesting considering the USA's narratives about itself. And how, it seems to me, its population is so invested in said narratives that it will defend those even in the face of contrary research. You'd think a culture so invested in its self-determination would be angry about this result and endeavor to do something about it.

      • inigyou 24 minutes ago
        The linked research was 12 years ago during the Obama regime. Have things changed since Obama?
      • inglor_cz 9 minutes ago
        Isn't this partly a question of sheer size of countries like the US and India?

        In Slovenia or Denmark, there may be two degrees of separation fewer between the regular voter and, say, an ordinary MP, because the parliaments and government are about the same size, but the population is in single millions. Even here in Czechia quite a lot of people actually know personally some high-ranking politician.

        How many Americans are on friendly terms with their Rep or Senator?

        • tdeck 1 minute ago
          > How many Americans are on friendly terms with their Rep or Senator?

          I would imagine if you limited this to folks with $100MM+ net worth, the percentage wouldn't be so low.

    • tdeck 19 minutes ago
      When asking if it's "working", you need to ask "for whom?".
    • giov4 49 minutes ago
      agree, but do you think are there any working examples? is it working somewhere someway? could we learn and take example from it? or is all chaos and corruption?

      I still think about the Bonobos a lot.

      • egeozcan 38 minutes ago
        To complete the circle: The definition of working is vastly different among humans, and that's why we have (or trying to have) democracy.
    • DarkNova6 8 minutes ago
      This sounds like a more elaborate version of Whataboutism.
  • NiceWayToDoIT 18 minutes ago
    Hm, so study discovered hot water, what is new ?
  • t-3 21 minutes ago
    Representative democracy is by nature oligachic. Practically, there was no other way to organize a large state until modern communications technology, so that's very understandable, the critical issue is that the US is becoming less and less democratic and more oligarchic over time while we are more and more capable of democracy (instantaneous communication across the world, very fast travel, universal education, etc). The end of proportional representation in favor of a fixed-size Congress was the beginning of the end, IMO.
    • lapcat 10 minutes ago
      "All politics is local", which used to be true until perhaps 50 years ago, was the only thing that kept the oligarchs in check. Now the oligarchs can use modern communications technology to organize and consolidate power at the national and even international level. Consider how Rupert Murdoch for example was able to spread his political propaganda from Australia all the way to the US and the UK. Consider also how Jeffrey Epstein organized a global social network of oligarchs.
  • spacedcowboy 1 hour ago
    Hasn't this been obvious for a while ? The US is about 1/5 of the way down an ever-more-slippery slope towards a fascist state. Its much-vaunted "checks and balances" have been shown to be paper tigers, and the constitution it heralds far and wide doesn't seem to be worth the paper its written on.

    The US already has one of the weakest social safety nets in the Western world, it has military-spec weaponised police with little to no oversight, it has a political system ripe for abuse with the electoral college and gerrymandering running rife, and it has a political legacy of "it doesn't matter what you do to win, as long as you win", which allows racism to dictate voting rights. It's an attitude (along with a lot of the other political institutions) that hasn't been updated since Victorian times.

    There's a lot of things I would not agree with, with any of the political leadership of the UK, but I wouldn't expect any of them - even the worst in my eyes - to separate children from families, prevent them from taking their medicine, lock them up in desert camps where rape and abuse are rife, and then remove them to remote locations with no record of where they went. Human trafficking, organised by the US government, for the profit of the rich. Not content with legal slavery for the imprisoned, they implemented it for migrants too. Migrant children.

    I'm genuinely not sure if the US is capable of reversing its current course. I'm not even sure it's worth trying without a huge shift in opinion for the public who vote these rat-bastards in. Again. After the human-trafficking came to light...

    • inigyou 23 minutes ago
      It's been obvious to anyone who pays attention to all the details and thinks hard about their meaning, but that is a small fraction of people.
      • tdeck 11 minutes ago
        I think that deep down many people often believe that they could have a say in policy if only they tried hard enough, so their lack of influence is a kind of personal failing.

        In reality these systems are designed to absorb your effort and direct it into time sinks that either serve those in power

            Want to change things? First "we" need to take back the house by phone-banking for this blue dog
            Chip in $5 today to help Chuck Schumer win back the Senate
        
        or avoid putting pressure on anyone

            We're going to "show Trump" with a big attendance at the next No Kings rally
        
        It's similar to how people are led to believe anyone could have a billion dollars if only they were smarter and/or worked harder.
    • OgsyedIE 19 minutes ago
      A reverse would violate three red lines that the current oligarchy will not budge on:

      * More sharing of political power with ethnic, class or cultural outgroups

      * Less revenues for the oligarchy from land ownership, investment in healthcare and investment in finance (other investment sectors would do better, however)

      * Greater civil and criminal penalties for civil or criminal wrongdoing by oligarchs, their loved ones and their class allies (e.g. the affluenza case)

      Even installing something like Juche and losing internationally to China in every way is preferable to having any one of these go forward, at least to their perspective.

    • giov4 52 minutes ago
      yes kinda obvious now for many, but I've never seen it so nicely summarised and also from 2014!

      I always try to consider a possible biased view, but again seen it summarized it like this makes it extremely simple and clear.

    • lapcat 18 minutes ago
      > Its much-vaunted "checks and balances" have been shown to be paper tigers, and the constitution it heralds far and wide doesn't seem to be worth the paper its written on.

      The Constitution was oligarchic by design of the founding oligarchs, who stated explicitly that the point of the "checks and balances" was actually to stop majoritarianism.

  • mnmnmn 23 minutes ago
    [dead]
  • hn_submit 34 minutes ago
    [flagged]
    • giov4 27 minutes ago
      I see this written here as a good representation of the current media view imposed on people ( and apparently well received ) that is actually leading to things like trump or fascism.
    • sirtaj 26 minutes ago
      The article is about oligarchy. You've somehow redirected it towards immigration. How are you making this connection?
      • inigyou 23 minutes ago
        Oligarchy is whenever you're free to travel, apparently.
      • hn_submit 22 minutes ago
        Trump is part of upper class oligarchy in the United States and his election is the direct result of the concerns of his constituents regarding immigration.