Are AI Labs Pelicanmaxxing?

(dylancastillo.co)

108 points | by dcastm 2 hours ago

22 comments

  • simonw 32 minutes ago
    This is fantastic

    I've been casually spot-checking other animals in other vehicles, because my absolute dream situation here is to catch an AI lab that's demonstrably better at pelicans on bicycles than other combinations.

    Catching a lab cheating specifically on my one dumb benchmark would be really funny.

    Dylan's methodology here - generating 1008 SVGs across an 8x6 combination - is significantly more robust than anything I was considering.

    His conclusion:

    > Nothing jumped out at me. I couldn’t find a case where the pelican-bicycle images looked noticeably better than the rest of that model’s grid.

    • gilleain 27 minutes ago
      Perhaps also vary the bird? Wikipedia tells me pelicans are in the order _Pelecaniformes_ so shoebills or herons might do.
    • mattertoast 10 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • mauvehaus 16 minutes ago
    > All 21 pelican-bicycle images, across all seven labs, face right. No other animal/vehicle combination does that.

    > However, facing right is common: 60% of all 1,008 images do it. How common depends on the animal and the vehicle, and bicycles are one of the two vehicles where it’s strongest

    Of course the pelican on the bicycle is facing right. The drivetrain on a bicycle is on the right side. If you want any representation of a bicycle that shows the drivetrain you're going to show the right side of it if you want to do so without the frame occluding it. It's an excellent bet that their training data reflects this.

    Citation: https://www.rei.com/c/bikes

    Edited to add:

    As near as I can tell, all of the bicycles are shown facing right, regardless of the direction the animal is facing (GPT 5.6-Terra, Sample 1/3). Also, in every case where the rider has legs (i.e. not the whale) both of the rider's legs are on the right side of the bicycle. This suggests a pretty serious lack of actual understanding of how a bicycle works.

  • ertgbnm 2 minutes ago
    I've had the feeling that labs aren't pelicanmaxxing specifically but that they do have some sort of RL environment for SVGs that they are letting the AIs overcook in. Specifically I'm thinking of the gemini 3.1 pro annoucnement that seemed to have a huge leap in animated SVG performance but not much else impressive about it.

    So they aren't pelicanmaxxing but they are benchmaxxing in a way. The benefit of the pelican was originally that uplift on the pelican signaled an overall uplift on intelligence. I don't believe that is the case anymore and it is just another jagged edge of model intelligence.

  • bnfcl 2 minutes ago
    This is funny, I actually did a similar experiment just yesterday.

    Looking for evidence of the same, but with another twist: checking if the models would choose to create a pelican on a bicycle, if no specific bird or method of transportation was specified.

    My version of it: https://www.modelbias.ai/pelican-on-a-bicycle-test

  • stusmall 46 minutes ago
    I'm glad someone ran the numbers on this. Every single Simon Willison post of an SVG is followed with someone dismissing it saying "I'm sure they train on it by now." This is despite a good blog post with sound logic on how easy that is to catch. [1] Glad to see someone took the time for a quantitative analysis of dumb little animals riding dumb little bikes.

    1. https://simonwillison.net/2025/Nov/13/training-for-pelicans-...

  • dllu 21 minutes ago
    I feel like getting LLMs to spit out an SVG is akin to getting a human artist to draw something by just reciting a list of coordinates. It's insanely hard and unnatural.

    Image generation models nowadays can easily generate a photorealistic pelican riding a bicycle, where the bicycle has perfect structure. But it is, of course, only a raster image.

    It seems that we're missing a kind of step to decompose an image into a list of instructions (say, SVG paths, or even brush strokes with a real brush) to reproduce it properly. Doing so would probably need a true understanding of the structure of the scene, which is something that AI still struggles with to this day.

    • staticshock 11 minutes ago
      The pelican on a bicycle test is specifically about generating an SVG, fyi, not a raster.
      • dllu 5 minutes ago
        I know. I'm just thinking about how to make AI create SVGs better... in theory, a sufficiently smart AI could "generate an image in its head", think about it, and then output the SVG paths to produce said image. Intuitively that would be somewhat closer to how human artists convert artistic visions into a sequence of arm movements while holding a brush (obviously, humans don't hold a fully formed, photorealistic image in the head while drawing, but rather vague concepts, but still).
    • 0x000xca0xfe 10 minutes ago
      Image models that support text output like Image2, or general text models that can read images like Claude can vectorize raster images. But they aren't very good at it, doing it manually in Inkscape still produces better quality even when done by non-artists.
  • Wowfunhappy 53 minutes ago
    > The more plausible story is SVGmaxxing

    Exactly--and you have to ask yourself at this point what "maxxing" really means, since "get better at drawing SVGs" is a useful skill.

    • beering 33 minutes ago
      Really awful how the AI labs are skillmaxxing /s

      Pelicans aside, we need to remember that benchmarks are the only good quantitative way we have of comparing models. If someone has complaints about “benchmaxxing”, please ask them to contribute a better benchmark! It is valuable work and very appreciated.

  • stri8ted 4 minutes ago
    You seem to assume training on pelican would not result in improved performance on other similar tasks. Why?
    • altcognito 0 minutes ago
      He didn't. That's why the article exists. You have to do the science to see if it does.

      He was asking the question - do we see gains across other tasks? The underlying question was: Is the additional attention given to this specific task creating a false impression of progress?

  • apwheele 22 minutes ago
    So this is not my experience at all for asking about simple SVG icons for web-pages. Here is one of the examples I have tried for in the past, make a simple cartoon SVG knife for a map icon for a crime map.

    https://x.com/CrimeDecoder/status/2080008114615537766

    Can see the images for ChatGPT/Claude (Sonnet 5), and Gemini are all quite bad.

    Jagged edge of LLMs. How do you explain being able to generate very complicated shapes in the Pelican example but cannot make a much simpler icon without just alluding to it is in the training data?

  • BeetleB 11 minutes ago
    Oh great! You've now made it a lot easier for LLMs to train on this dataset!

    Your next iteration will need different animals and different transportation options. You'll run out after a few iterations.

    • anuramat 5 minutes ago
      "benchmaxxing by generalizing" is not really benchmaxxing
  • scosman 18 minutes ago
    join me in building the ideal training set for pelicans riding bicycles: https://github.com/scosman/pelicans_riding_bicycles
  • simonw 25 minutes ago
  • Rooster61 31 minutes ago
    I find it humorous that the animal + plane combo appears to be such an outlier. I assume this is due to the models assuming the user mean plain and misspelled it in the prompt.
    • NitpickLawyer 22 minutes ago
      GLM has 2 combos of "on a plane" literally sitting inside a plane, with a window and a bit of wing showing. That's funny.
  • jonatron 45 minutes ago
    OK, so we've done animal_vehicle, how about new SVG ideas each time? I just tried "make an SVG of a man sitting in a chair at a computer behind a desk" which gives more interesting results than the animalVehicle test.
    • ninju 31 minutes ago
      There probably good set of images of that description already so it does exercise the inference capability of the model
  • andrewstuart 6 minutes ago
    The pelican prompt is ridiculous.

    Test the LLLM against things you want it to do.

    Asking questions that are absurd is like interviewing developers and asking absurd questions on the grounds that it tests creative and critical thinking.

    Remember these Microsoft interview questions designed to identify the best developers?

    "If you could eliminate one U.S. state, which one would it be?"

    "How would you move Mount Fuji?"

    Absurd interview questions have an air of legitimacy due to the quasi sophisticated justifications put forward for why they are good tests.

    Absurd interview questions are not good tests of people or LLMs.

    Relevant questions are good tests.

    • simonw 1 minute ago
      > The pelican prompt is ridiculous

      Yes, deliberately so.

      It was never intended as a meaningful benchmark. The surprising thing was that for the first ~12 months performance on the stupid pelican benchmark did seem to correspond to the performance of the models on other tasks.

      That pattern no longer holds - Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 have both been out-pelicaned by lesser models now.

  • johndough 1 hour ago
    Another point for consideration: Specialized SVG models create way better looking pelicans riding a bicycle. (E.g. Refract V4: https://jumpshare.com/s/8liB7Aiuoo3yucbWGXjZ mirror: https://postimg.cc/McV70p84 )
    • solarkraft 49 minutes ago
      That’s an impressive image, but what a mistake it was to click the second link (on mobile without an ad blocker). I wouldn’t send it to anyone I respect ...
    • ACCount37 41 minutes ago
      The name is "Recraft V4", and from looking it up: yeah, it sure seems like whatever black magic they use for SVG generation kicks ass.
  • tomas789 59 minutes ago
    Having an objective score is quite difficult. Maybe it would be better to do a pairwise comparison and calculate ELO?
    • NitpickLawyer 19 minutes ago
      Just click through the models. At a glance (and highly subjective) I don't see anything jumping out as oom worse than anything else. I only noticed a model placing the animal inside a plane (with seat and small window) but other than that, they all seem similar inside each model to me.
    • javier123454321 39 minutes ago
      If you want to, go ahead, but it seems to me the author already exceeded the energy expenditure that this question warranted.
  • andy99 1 hour ago
    If an AI researcher was going to pelicanmaxx, they would almost certainly apply the augmentations mentioned in the article during training, e.g. randomly selecting animals and conveyances. You’d want a model that generalizes well, just sfting in that specific prompt would be pretty bush league for a frontier lab.

    I don’t have any reason to believe they are gaming the benchmark, just saying. I do find the idea of a data labeller having to generate thousands of svgs of different animals on different modes of transportation quite funny though.

    • cute_boi 46 minutes ago
      At this point, I think there are so many pelican images in the pretraining data that drawing a pelican no longer makes sense as a model evaluation task.
  • dcchambers 1 hour ago
    It's incredible that each model has it's own style that remains relatively consistent throughout all of the different generated examples.
  • j45 39 minutes ago
    The models definitely seem to pay attention to the tests.

    Since the tests can be generally gamed with directing descriptions at it non-deterministically, there's a greater chance the questions solution can be found.

    Of course, hopefully the models are instead adding patterns and types of questions as well and it makes the models more capable, but it may be limited in how it transfers to other types of questions in breadth or depth.

  • cute_boi 48 minutes ago
    https://playcode.io/blog/macbook-svg-benchmark

    I think we should stop using pelican benchmark.

    • dllu 14 minutes ago
      I disagree with this in the blog post:

      > Every single one is a pelican, on a bicycle, first try. When every student gets an A, the exam has stopped grading.

      Numerous pelicans and their bikes are clearly horribly malformed. In fact none of the bike frames are correct. Fable and Opus come close, but the top of the diamond is disconnected in Fable's case and the head tube is misaligned with the front fork in Opus's case.

      And of course, as the parent post shows, labs don't actually seem to be training on the pelican bike case.

      • ErrantX 3 minutes ago
        Agreed. And more; the Macbooks are pretty much the same - some are god approximations, some are terrible, all of them are recognisably a MacBook. And if you start using it they can train on it.

        The problem isn't the test, its that is a public test.

        Simon has previously said he has a list of secret prompts (at least one of which he "burned" as a demonstration a while ago). That's what makes it a good test - his commentary on the public test is something of a proxy for non-public tests. This makes it a good benchmark.

  • sbseitz 1 hour ago
    I wish I could downvote this for Pelicanmaxxing lmao.
    • influx 11 minutes ago
      Would you prefer the term Pelicangate?