Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

(morethanmoore.substack.com)

59 points | by zdw 3 days ago

2 comments

  • rando1234 31 minutes ago
    Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).
    • spwa4 17 minutes ago
      That's what makes this hard to interpret. The whole strategy of intel is that they have their own version of this machine, part of their "18A" design. The only reason they need the ASML machine is because of the "optics" (between quotes because at the frequencies they work at no optics work - only (bad) mirrors do. However you need make the mirrors accurate enough - we're talking far more accurate than the chips, as in sub-nanometer max deviation, they can function as optics with high losses, but low enough that exposure works). No American company can achieve even 10 times lower accuracy at the moment.

      So is this giving up on their own version? That would mean their stock price is absolutely not justified at $110, and it should be more like $60-70 if not lower. Or is this "we have technical reasons to use this. We're still going to do 18A and it's still going to beat 2nm", which would mean their stock price is easily justified at $200 and it's high time to buy.

      • vrganj 7 minutes ago
        Only the optics is an ... interesting way of phrasing it.

        There was a great Economist article a while ago that talks about this. ASMLs moat isn't just the know-how to build the machines themselves. It's a network of suppliers all across Europe, specialized businesses doing one little part than anyone else in the world.

        This is the type of thing that Europe is still leading in, and it'll be incredibly hard to reproduce elsewhere.

        You don't just need to figure out how to build an High-NA EUV machine. You need to figure out how to build or procure all of the parts that go into it. Many of these suppliers have exclusive contracts with ASML.

        Here's the article, de-paywalled: https://archive.ph/jP1HX

  • dyauspitr 2 hours ago
    Im rooting for Intel. I hate the current paradigm where all the best chips are made in one factory in Asia.
    • fsuts 59 minutes ago
      Tsmc are opening 10 factories in USA at cost of $265bn

      https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-tsmc-us-investment...

      Intel staying strong is still vital for competitiveness though

    • nasretdinov 1 hour ago
      IMO it's competition that makes better products in the end. If either party becomes a full monopolist the progress will stall (as already happened with Intel I guess)
      • jbstack 1 hour ago
        > as already happened with Intel I guess

        In which sense? Intel is neither a full monopolist (AMD, ARM) nor has progress stalled (we're still getting a regular cycle of new generation CPUs which improve on the previous).

        • ahartmetz 44 minutes ago
          Intel didn't do much to improve their CPUs while AMD was out of the competition with the Bulldozer disaster.
          • c0n5pir4cy 2 minutes ago
            It was a pretty bad time - ARM wasn't really encroaching on any of their markets in the way they are now & AMD was struggling. Intel basically just left the engineering to rot & the business people to try and gouge consumers with things like the Intel Upgrade Service, low power CPUs that were essentially just normal cores but less rather than optimized, inflated prices etc.

            It also allowed AMD to completely blindside them with Zen - so we're in a situation where AMD now dominates consumer desktop and arguably a lot of enterprise/DC instead of it balancing towards a more competitive centre.

        • PowerElectronix 17 minutes ago
          Intel had a monopoly on bleeding edge cpu for a long time until they got stuck on 14nm for years, allowing TSMC to catch up and providing AMD the means to compete.

          In a the best of timelines, intel, tsmc and samsung (and glofo maybe?) Would all have competitive fab nodes.